Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC:

What's wrong Sep 26, 2018 4:32 pm #21392

  • BNature
  • BNature's Avatar Topic Author
  • Away
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 1513
  • Thank you received: 1386
I've caught spawner kings in 80+ degree water. I'd rather the water be cooler - but it doesn't have to be to get the fish to come back. When it's time, it's time. Not so much for Skamania steelheads. Other than the kings stocked (or that used to be stocked) in Lake County, Chicago and other places where there is no stream, I don't think there are many kings living out their final days, ignoring their natal urges because the water is too warm.

Not trying to get into the climate change, global warming thing, but even if you are a staunch believer, remember, the Earth (which includes Lake Michigan) is supposed to warm just a few degrees in a CENTURY - not in a few years.
The following user(s) said Thank You: scoffer

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

What's wrong Sep 26, 2018 8:23 pm #21395

  • southshore
  • southshore's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Elite Member
  • Elite Member
  • Posts: 471
  • Thank you received: 471
I’m a year round boat, stream, and pier fisherman. I live in Lake County. My preference if it matters, would be to see all our kings stocked in Trail. The shore access at Portage sucks and the Ditch is always too warm for healthy migration. Michigan City has infinitely more room for shore guys to access the fish and Trail has cooler temps and plenty of decent stream access. The fish that run the ditch head every which way, Deep River, Salt, Willow Creek, and of course some in the East Branch. Whatever is going in, it sure would be nice if the guys running the DNR website would keep the information up to date and accessible to the public.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

What's wrong Sep 26, 2018 8:51 pm #21396

  • raven
  • raven's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Premium Member
  • Premium Member
  • Posts: 128
  • Thank you received: 73
It still never made any sense to me to cut every species that is stocked but lake trout when the goal was to build the alewives and other forage base back up. Like all those lake trout are just going to sit on the bottom of the lake and eat mud. They live longer and are naturally reproducing and were still being stock in high numbers. Another problem is giving part of our stocking numbers to St.joe, That's Michigan water not Indiana water does us down here no good. Many of those fish don't even make it to South Bend. So we are left with a spring coho fishery with a hit or miss summer run steelhead and really little or no fall return of kings or coho. Lakers if you want them, can be caught pretty much year round by the port in fall to state line north the rest of year.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

What's wrong Sep 27, 2018 6:34 am #21398

  • Lickety-Split
  • Lickety-Split's Avatar
  • Away
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2455
  • Thank you received: 1740
As fishermen we shouldn't be saying I think fish need to be here not there, or there not here. East Chicago is being left out of the loop and alot of water is out there.
We should be asking how to improve things. But to make improvements we need to know what is broke. So Ben we need more information.Out of the 63,000 number being used presently for stocking purposes how many are those fish are being predated on?What is the predation rate on smolts?
Lake Huron is a crashed lake, but still stocks 700,000 kings. Those kings are presently being marked as Lake Michigan fish. So if they are marked as Lake Michigan fish and we took another 60,000 kings out of that number we could still stock Indiana and not actually be putting any extra kings in Lake Michigan.
The states that are working more and more with net pens are doing this why? What are their return rates before they used net pens and after the use of net pens. How well did they work not only on a good imprint but cutting back on the predation?
Lickety-Split

Life is not measured by the breaths you take
but by the moments that take your breath away
The following user(s) said Thank You: Pikesmith

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Lickety-Split.

What's wrong Sep 27, 2018 12:17 pm #21399

  • Dirty
  • Dirty's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • Posts: 5182
  • Thank you received: 1681
Thanks for the info and graph Ben!
Boatless!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

What's wrong Sep 27, 2018 3:05 pm #21401

  • MC_angler
  • MC_angler's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 598
  • Thank you received: 1272

We should be asking how to improve things. But to make improvements we need to know what is broke.


Damn straight! I completely agree. As fisheries managers, that’s our job. To figure out what’s going on, assess what we can control, and take steps to address things when we can.

The primary thing that is broken, plain and simple, is that there's not enough bait in the lake compared to how things were 10+ years ago, and certainly 20-30 years or more ago. Some of that is due to nutrient loading reductions via the Clean Water Act, and a lot of it is due to mussels sequestering nutrients and disrupting the food web. The rest of it is because there’s too much predation pressure on the remaining bait. That is the only thing we can realistically improve in terms of the bait situation. Our only feasible tool in the toolbox for increasing bait is reducing predation pressure.

How you fix it is by reducing stocking in the short term, so the bait can rebound bigtime, and then you can increase stocking moderately so you don't end back up at Square 1. We’re starting to see the positive results of the cuts, but it’s not like things are peachy. Bait has ticked up, not totally and completely exploded. Quite honestly, I think to really help bait come back quickly, we would need to cut significantly more fish. But given the angler pushback over the previous cuts, I don’t think that’s an outcome that the public would support in the short term, even though it likely would have the best long-term chance of success in terms of building back more bait.

Aside from the obvious purpose of adult fish feeding on it, surviving and growing, there's a couple really important functions that bait provides to baby kings. Number 1 is that when there's a lot of alewives inshore during May, they are a "predation buffer" - everything is eating them, instead of the 3-4 inch chinook smolts.
And Number 2, those inshore alewives need to pull off a good spawn, so that the baby kings can eat those Age 0 alewives in late summer and early fall, so they can survive to become 1 year old kings. The single biggest predictor of a good chinook yearclass is the strength of the same year’s alewife yearclass. Even if you have zero smolt predation, it doesn’t matter if there are not enough alewives for them to eat and survive to adulthood.

In terms of smolt predation, it's next to impossible to measure this directly. Once they are outside the river system it's really impossible to measure. It's a big lake and they disperse. Can't follow every single fish around for months to obtain predation rates upon smolts.
You can, however, make educated guesses based on knowledge of specific stocking locations. For instance, on systems where the fish are stocked way far upstream and there are lots of dams and predators along the way (e.g. St. Joseph River), there's higher smolt mortality from dams and predators. And in smaller systems without resident populations of big predatory fish (like Trail Creek, Little Cal, etc) there is much less predation on smolts within the river system.
The most reliable thing to do to get at the smolt predation question is to measure the returns as adults, compared to how many you stocked. The ones that don't return are dead, through some combination of smolt predation, anglers catching them, and death by starvation/disease/other causes. That lets you somewhat isolate the predation issue from the others, but it doesn’t really give you a “predation number”.

In terms of net pens, those are some really good questions that Ed posed.

The perception is that net pens provide time for fish to acclimate to their new environment, which helps imprinting, and avoid initial predation when they are disoriented right after stocking. The reality is that this may or may not be true, depending on location. Past reviews of net penning have produced very mixed results by location. This isn’t very surprising, because each stocking site is different. For instance, the imprinting issue is moot if you are stocking upstream in a river system, because smolts do not need much in terms of imprinting. Their outmigration journey triggers them to both imprint geographically and using olfactory cues (how the river smells). So, in upstream stockings, net pens won’t offer any improvement with regard to imprinting. But in a harbor, they probably help considerably.

For predation, net pens would be expected to help most in areas with large amounts of predators right at the stocking site itself, that would feed upon disoriented smolts soon after stocking. This would include harbors and stocking sites near the mouth of very large river systems.

Other net pen considerations: they have to be in an area easily accessible for daily feeding, there needs to be enough flow to supply adequate dissolved oxygen, flush out fish waste and excess food, be in an area not subject to extreme temperature changes, wave action, changing water levels, and ideally be in an area that would not be prone to chemical or fuel spills (eg near a fuel dock in a marina).


The reason we haven't used net pens in the Trail Creek/Little Cal systems is that the systems themselves are offering the same advantages as net pens. We stock the fish upstream several miles, so there are no imprinting issues. There are very few predators in these systems where the fish are stocked, so predation within the stream isn't a significant issue either. Smolts can spread out within the system, find food and cover in the ample woody debris, and outmigrate whenever they want to. They’ve already imprinted, and they’ve already oriented themselves to their new environment, so predation within the stocking site isn’t a large issue either.

There are downsides of net pens in a river system: if the system is flashy (like ours are) a springtime rain can lead to a flood, reducing dissolved oxygen, increasing sediment and large debris, which can affect their gills, potentially cause physical damage to the pen, and or actually kill the fish inside, since they are confined and cannot spread out and go to safer areas, or even ride the flood out to the lake. There can also be issues with fish health and disease that can affect the entire stocking. There are multiple documented instances of entire net pens being wiped out from fin rot, coldwater disease, bacterial gill disease, and other fish health problems. Basically there’s a small chance of direct loss to a substantial part of the stocking since they are all in one small place in the river and cannot leave unless they are released from the pen.

Note that net pens do NOT really solve predation outside of the stream, nor do they solve the problem of not enough to eat in the big lake.

My point here is not to say net pens are useless, but that they are a tool. They are not a panacea. I’m all for using the right tools for the right job.


I reached out to my counterpart in Wisconsin who is evaluating their net pen projects. Their data is still preliminary as there are only a couple years of data available, since the program just only recently got underway.

They are taking a really close look at the Root and Kewaunee Rivers, since they both have weirs and offer very easy and verifiable return data in southern and northern Wisconsin. They used coded wire tags and stocked some of their fish in net pens, and others directly into the river using their normal stocking procedures (just like Indiana’s stockings). This paired design offers a direct comparison between direct stocking and net pens. Then they evaluated the returns of these fish to the weir in the fall.

Those preliminary results, according to the Wisconsin biologist, are that their data so far suggest no significant difference between net-penned fish and direct-stocked fish when comparing return to their weirs, and actually the direct river stocked fish did slightly better overall

Both of these rivers are pretty similar to Indiana’s – relatively small, not a ton of flow, not a ton of predators to eat smolts, and the fish are stocked within a few miles of the lake. I consider it an excellent proxy for our stocking situation in terms of imprinting and smolt predation potential.

Based on the data he supplied me, over 2 recovery years, at the weirs operating on the Root and Kewaunee they recovered 8.89 fish per 1000 stocked in net pens, and 9.65 per 1000 stocked directly in the river.

So, my take is also that so far the evidence for net pens in Wisconsin is that they are not improving survival and imprinting. I personally would not expect that to change substantially, but there’s a few more important years of data to collect yet before final conclusions are drawn.


With regard to Lake Huron chinooks, that is a giant can of worms. About the only thing I can say for sure is that there’s practically zero chance that chinooks stocked in Lake Huron are going to get added to Indiana’s stocking quota. As per my numbers in the previous post, Indiana already stocks far more chinooks per square mile than any other state. That is unlikely to drastically increase at the expense of other states.

Furthermore, although those chinooks are currently counted for Lake Michigan management purposes, to actually shift those over from Huron, the Lake Huron Committee has to sign off on it. What do you think the odds are of Michigan DNR’s two separate lake committee people saying, hey you know what, we’re totally cool with moving a bunch of chinooks out of Huron and give them to Indiana? And Michigan's anglers being ok with that?

Probably about the same odds as Indiana giving Michigan DNR permission to take all of our chinooks and stock them in Port Huron, wouldn’t you think?


Selfishly from Indiana’s perspective, I’d like to see those Lake Huron chinooks cut entirely, because it would reduce a decent chunk of pressure on the Lake Michigan forage base without substantially affecting our fishery on the south end. But I’m sure the folks in northern Lake Michigan have a different outlook on that.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dirty, Plane to Sea, Pikesmith, rvanbw00, edac

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by MC_angler.

What's wrong Sep 27, 2018 3:21 pm #21402

  • MC_angler
  • MC_angler's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 598
  • Thank you received: 1272

I’m a year round boat, stream, and pier fisherman. I live in Lake County. My preference if it matters, would be to see all our kings stocked in Trail. The shore access at Portage sucks and the Ditch is always too warm for healthy migration. Michigan City has infinitely more room for shore guys to access the fish and Trail has cooler temps and plenty of decent stream access. The fish that run the ditch head every which way, Deep River, Salt, Willow Creek, and of course some in the East Branch. Whatever is going in, it sure would be nice if the guys running the DNR website would keep the information up to date and accessible to the public.


These are issues that are very tough to balance with regards to stocking. Some stocking locations have good access, some have good survival of one species, some have great boat fishing at times of the year but not at others, etc. Some areas are stocked because there are a lot of people that live there and fish, not because they are the best fishing spot. And so forth.

At our office, we have kicked around the idea of trying to plant species almost entirely where they do best. There are pros and cons to that.

Skamania would be the primary example. Burns Ditch is simply too warm for those fish to ascend up into the river and be caught during June, July, and August. There is virtually no fishing pressure on Salt and Little Cal during those months, but at times there is great skamania fishing near the mouth of the Ditch via boats and shore anglers.

If we swapped things around and put all the kings and skamania in Trail Creek and more coho and winter run steelhead in the Little Cal, each individual fishery would be much better during those seasons. But it would come at a cost of losing fish seasonally in each place as well. Just something to ponder. Don't know how many people would favor doing that sort of thing or not
The following user(s) said Thank You: Pikesmith, scoffer

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

What's wrong Sep 27, 2018 4:49 pm #21405

  • Lickety-Split
  • Lickety-Split's Avatar
  • Away
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2455
  • Thank you received: 1740
Yes it would be hard to get them to cut some of those Huron Kings. The other downfall to those fish being counted as Lake Michigan fish is we down here don't see those fish much if the northern part is holding bait. Add in the natural king numbers and that leaves us down here as having to depend on kings that spend little time in our water.It really shows up every season around the 3rd week of July. North wind blows our bait moves fish are gone never really to return the rest of the season.
I think I remember you talking about a larger size coho smolt project. What was the reason for doing that if I remembered correctly and has it been done with kings?
Would also like to see the cost of each smolt by species that we stock for 2019. The number of each species stocked for 2019. Kings are around 45 cents? Coho? Steel? Browns?The amount of hatchery time for each. And size of each when stocked. Thanks
Lickety-Split

Life is not measured by the breaths you take
but by the moments that take your breath away
The following user(s) said Thank You: Pikesmith

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Lickety-Split.

What's wrong Sep 28, 2018 5:32 am #21407

  • BNature
  • BNature's Avatar Topic Author
  • Away
  • Platinum Member
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 1513
  • Thank you received: 1386
Question about the Wisconsin stats: You said they "recovered 8.89 fish per 1000 stocked in net pens, and 9.65 per 1000 stocked directly in the river."
What does "recovered" mean? Does that mean they had only a 1.854 percent return to the river? That return rate seems a bit low for a Wisconsin River and similar to Indiana's recent percentage of return.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

What's wrong Sep 28, 2018 8:59 am #21409

  • Angry Pirate
  • Angry Pirate's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Moderator
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 812
  • Thank you received: 488
The reason Wisconsin stocks a disproportionate amount of kings compared to other states now is that the last go-round of cuts they elected to drastically slash their brown trout stockings and I believe reduce some steelhead as well to retain some of their chinook stockings. The Lake Michigan Committee agreed that individual states could achieve stocking cuts using multiple species if they desired, as long as they did not exceed the overall stocking quota agreed upon.

Ben I’m very positive they did cut some brown trout and steelhead but not over large numbers but allso cut 400000 lake trout. Michigan took those lake trout and stocked them in deep water probably as a slap in Wisconsin’s face for going against what everyone else was doing. I agree with you I don’t want any of our silver fish cut by an big numbers. You guys have done a great job with the steelhead and lake trout it’s something to be proud of. But we have plenty of lake trout that will be self sustaining. I am no biologist and don’t follow stocking to the tee. Can we cut all lake trout stocking and stock the Appropriate amount of kings to make the difference. I think I’ve heard it’s like 4 greasers to 1 king? I would be willing to bet most anglers would be for it. I personally believe there is a storm forming in Indiana there are a lot of unhappy fisherman.Some charter captains are starting to speak publicly on there feelings. I do not think we need to just do what ever we want science has to back the decisions. If our number is 60000 kings that’s what it is. We need to do something different, if what we are doing now is not working. No need to let good money go to bad but the answer is definitely not “no kings”. Why does indiana not try net pens and get our own data instead of using someone else’s data. I am also willing to bet if Dnr is willing to put in the effort there are a lot of people willing to help for free if Dnr did not have the resources. Don’t we lose a large percentage of our fish just after they are released to birds? Common sense tells me net pens would help leaps and bounds with that especially in a harbor or marina. In other words I believe things need to change.
It's better to ask forgiveness than for permission.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Angry Pirate.